So of course, the first thing I did was call all of my local scene and tell them about it so that we could practice, play, and just in general have a good time. Things were great. We were all exploring characters, trying to figure out how they worked. One of my friends, Mailorder, had deigned to try the new characters before looking into any of the characters that had returned from other games in the series. He remarked after standing up at some time with the words "I really like C. Viper. I think she could be good." Promptly, somebody I had never seen before (but was obviously a fighting game player) chimed in from the side with a snide remark: "Viper is C-Tier."
It was at that moment I realized that tier lists are not what they used to be. Indeed, in recent days I've found that tier lists have become a shadow of what they were before. They are used as a method to ostracize players, using words like "scrub" and "tier whore" to describe those who play characters on the lower or upper end of the list respectively. It has become an elitist's tool, a piece of knowledge that is waved in the face of the uninitiated or uninformed as if it were a holy piece of scripture passed on only to those who were worthy. Indeed, what I always enjoyed about having tier lists has all but disappeared these days.
I'd like to illustrate this by speaking about a couple of players in particular. The first I'll mention is a Super Smash Bros. Melee player who goes by Taj. A close personal friend of mine, when I first met Taj, he was already a very skilled player. Specifically, he was a very strong Mewtwo player. Those who follow the game might know that as of today he is considered to be the best Mewtwo player in the world. However, a long time ago before his talents were "discovered", many people did not know him as such. In fact, there were no notable Mewtwo players because everyone simply refused to play the character. I recall quite famously at a tournament in Southern California, Taj counterpicked another player's Fox with his Mewtwo and won in fantastic fashion, much to the shock and awe of others. What they did not know about was Mewtwo's incredibly strong chain grab against Fox and Falco, as well as the incredibly strong combos Mewtwo gets at the end of that chain throw. It was enough to take a stock from a simple grab. Playing Taj for a long time, I knew quite well. I was on the receiving end of these combos many times. But for most people, Mewtwo was just another "C-Tier" character. Not worth playing, exploring, or understanding. After all, they were playing "A Tier" and "S Tier" characters. It wasn't possible to lose... or so they thought.
I spoke with Taj recently about his thoughts on Tier Lists. Here is what he had to say about their place in the world of competitive fighting games.
"It's okay to be wrong or mistaken, and it's also okay to have an opinion as long as it is justified. I think the tier lists should be more flexible, our understanding of character match-ups should be more flexible, and I think it is okay to have characters move back and forth even if the game doesn't change and only the people do. We change, our capabilities grow and evolve, and we're starting to explore new and old ideas.
It is Intelligence vs. Speed, or a mixture of both while being equally meticulous. We have options, we play hundreds of thousands of matches, we watch tons of videos, and yet we can't accept when Fox isn't necessarily the best character in the game anymore....
...I think our tier-list should be more dynamic and updated periodically based on ever-changing match-ups, ideas, and tournament results. I think it promotes more discussion, the same kind of good and bad discussion that long-term lists generate, but still more discussion."
In this way, Taj and I agree -- which leads me to my first point.
A TIER LIST IS NOT ALWAYS SET IN STONE.
This in particular is meant to address people like those who I mentioned in my first story. Viper truly was a "C Tier" character back then. We had no concept of super jump cancels, her Ultra was limited to punishes and very basic setups with burn kicks, and her bread and butter combo was crouching forward canceled into a thunder knuckle. That character at it's most basic is not strong, but there is certainly more to learn about the game. Today we know Viper is a very scary character. Flash Metroid, Marn, Latif, and Wolfkrone have shown us that time and time again, along with many others.
Another such example comes from Sabre, another player in Arizona that I had the pleasure of playing with. For the most part, he's known for being part of the Wildcard Team at the EVO Regional Teams Exhibition Tournament in 2009. Here in particular is the match that most people remember -- his victory over Alex Valle, one of the top Ryu players of the time, and a very strong player still today.
At the time, Sakura was thought to be one of the worst characters in the game. It was accepted almost immediately as fact, and very few people wanted to challenge the concept. However, Sabre has a history of playing characters that are considered to be low tier. Some might recall his days playing Street Fighter Alpha 3 with V-Cody. I spoke to him about why he chose V-Cody, and specifically Sakura, and here was his response.
"I've always had a problem with people adhering strictly to a tier list for their character selection -- I think it holds a majority of the players back. For instance, back when i was learning Alpha 3 I started off with V-Akuma who was arguably the best character in the game. But there was something wrong. I hit a wall. I could beat most players in the US, but there were quite a few I could not. I couldnt get around this wall, so I decided to switch characters and just learn V-Cody. I had fun with him, he was interesting, no one used him, I could develop my own style, and it matched the way I like to play. V-Cody was pretty low on the list, but I picked him anyway and my overall game improved. After that, I only lost to people like Valle, Choi, Watson, Danny Leong, etc. who were all top 5 in the US at the time. I couldnt do that before with a 'stronger' character. Basically, the concept is this: Just because the character is supposed to be 'top tier' does not mean they will be top tier for you."
This illustrates my second point.
A TIER LIST DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR THE PLAYER'S SKILL SET
As a brief example, a player with a long background in Tekken may not feel so comfortable with a zoning game and may opt for a more rush down oriented character where as someone who comes from a more traditional Street Fighter 2 background might feel perfectly comfortable zoning. It's important to recognize that although there are indeed stronger and weaker characters in these games, it is important to also recognize that each player will utilize the characters in different ways. What is seen as weak to a player who is exclusively used to zoning and spacing could be seen as strong to a player who is more interested in utilizing frame traps, strong pokes, or mixup. In this way, it is very difficult to have a completely accurate tier list -- each person will do better or worse with certain characters. If a person finds that they cannot understand or utilize the tools of a "Top Tier" character and is far more capable of winning with a "Low Tier" character, I would not fault someone for taking the clearest path to victory.
With all this said, I do believe that tiers exist. In fact, I believe that they are a healthy and wonderful thing. A collaborative discussion about the general strengths, weaknesses, and overall effectiveness of the various strategies and idioms that surround characters can do great things. However, I feel that they are misunderstood these days. A tier list is not an effort to "break" a game or to classify people or characters. It is not a tool, not a law. Through our discussion and understanding of Tier Lists, Matchup Charts, and all the other myriad of ways we rank characters we gain a deeper understanding of the game. However, the paradigm needs to shift. Tier Lists are not about what characters are the best -- they are about trying to find a deeper understanding of a game that people care about. Often times, quite a bit more is gained from the community when a tier list is proven wrong than when it is proven right.
I would like to leave you today with some words of wisdom that I came across a long time ago when I was pursuing a career in education. Perhaps someone out there could find use in them today.
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism
Good read. Enjoyed those vids too
ReplyDeleteGreat article and I couldn't agree more. I play Adon in SSF4AE, and for a long time people just thought he was bad. The community needs people like Sabre (or Gamerbee) to try and break down the notion that certain characters just aren't worth playing.
ReplyDeleteI agree with pretty much everything in this article. Hell, I win way more SF4 matches with Sakura and Gouken than I can even come close to winning with characters like Sagat, Ken, Fei Long, etc.
ReplyDeleteExtremely interesting and well written article. A very enjoyable read.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of it, but also feel that without people looking down on certain characters, and assuming they're worthless, we would be without some of the more memorable and hype moments in FG history.
It's like an anime, where the big bad boss character talks down to the seemingly weak hero, and tells him there is no way he can win (and then rewords it in about 100 different ways), except we can't know for sure that the underdog will win in our case, so it's infinitely more exciting and entertaining when they do.
But anyway, it is a shame that people have the mindset they do over tiers these days, and I've been guilty of it myself. I don't feel that this issue, and others like it, will subside until the community becomes less mainstream again, though.
I love this article. Great videos too, I was an avid Melee player for a long time but I must have stopped playing before these cool mewtwo techniques came to light. Really great to see how the game evolved now.
ReplyDeleteGreat article.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the playerbase these days however, is most everyone wants to be spoonfed everything and no one wants to go and find stuff out on their own.
yes... a tier list is merely a tool to help come up with a better understanding of the game, not the understanding of the game itself. definitely enjoyed reading this as well as watching the videos that came with it.
ReplyDelete"They are used as a method to ostracize players, ...It has become an elitist's tool..."
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more with these thoughts. Since the home version of vanilla IV I use Fei Long and Sakura and perform well with both characters.
With Sakura, during vanilla IV I'm told she is weak and I am wasting my time learning her. Super and AE become available and people still discourage me using her because "she's still pretty low".
Now with Fei Long, during vanilla IV people are postitive, "hey a Fei player". Now in AE where he is considered top tier when I pick Fei Long I get condescending sighs and dirty looks.
What bothers me is complete strangers are judging me, questioning my choices, and assuming my motives based on a tier list. I think this is a good example of the ostracization of players you discussed.
Sorry, I don't anything insightful to add like everything above me, but I do want to say one thing.
ReplyDelete"OOOOHHHHHHHH, IS THAT MAGNETO!?"
I agree with most of what you said. Tiers should be flexible when people find new things. No character should be discounted because frankly I can't think of a single fighter in ANY game who couldn't be competetive in the right hands. People are too quick to judge strangers on tiers. Tiers are not law.
ReplyDeleteThere's two things I disagree with a lot though.
The first is the implication that tiers are minor things. I know this is likely a response to the millions of people whining about tiers for dumb reasons and you're playing devil's advocate, but sometimes, there is a valid reason. Sabre vs Valle was an upset; you can't give a once-off example of the underdog winning to validate the opinion that tiers don't impact gameplay. As far as I know, that was the only time a Sakura player has made such a splash, and I don't recall seeing her in a single Top 8 since.
Then there's the difference between Joe Average and the best. Seeing everyone switch to Yun is one thing, seeing half of the global Top 10 switch is another. When that happens, you know something has gone wrong.
You probably saw the 'concept rematch' between Filipino Champ and Daigo? Seeing a 21-minute nail biter of Sim vs Ryu followed by a 4-minute steamroll of Sim vs Yun was heartbreaking. That's partially due to matchup, yes, but I don't doubt we'd see the same thing right now if it was Justin Wong, or anyone else. Yun is definitely top tier and Daigo is damn good with him. Broken? No, but very few things truly are.
The second thing I disagree with is the purpose of tier lists. I believe tier lists should be a factual rank of a character's potential. They should change, but only when new things (eg superjump cancel for Viper) are found, not just when someone good decides to do good with them (eg JWong with Adon). Their purpose should be to help developers see where they went right, and where they went wrong. Ideally, tiers should eventually fade away, leaving only matchups.
I think MvC3 is a great example. Sentinel was just too good. Luckily Capcom didn't nerf his damage, or his armour moves, or his range, because that's what makes him as a character. Instead they nerfed his health. One less hit that he can get caught with. One less time he can just be carelessly thrown out as an assist. As he is now, Sentinel is still a very strong character, and the right hands can still make him amazing, but he's not top tier anymore. They punched him down to be more fair without removing what made him unique.
Yun could receive the same sort of thing. A straight nerf to all damage done would make him that much less insane - give players a few extra chances to read their opponent and escape his mixups to turn the tables - while keeping what makes him strong, keeping him powerful in the right hands.
You have to take that all with a grain of salt since I'm obviously one of the few who believes games should be patched regularly, rather than left alone until Santhrax happens. As much as I understand the fear many tournament players have of developers catering to netplayers crying about things they don't want to learn how to get around, a little bit of tweaking to the top and bottom of the tier list could see a lot more characters popping up at tournaments, for all games, and I don't see how anyone could think that was a bad thing.
That and, the 'don't complain about it' mentality is why there hasn't been an outcry and subsequent patch of the DHC glitch. :/
Also sorry for ranting so much. I just can't stand a comments section full of people agreeing. :3
The ryu / sakura match is a terrible example. Just because the lower tier character wins one match dosen't prove any kind of point. Neither does the V-Cody example for that matter. Tier lists don't take into account player skill level, and those other players could beat sabre because they were at the same level and using stronger characters.
ReplyDeleteI agree 100%. characters get played off to the low tier because of lack of lime light or overall low fanbase aka hakan and t hawk.
ReplyDeleteGood stuff. We definitely need more Taj and SabrE's in the world - top players who aren't afraid to put serious work into untapped characters and really see what is there.
ReplyDeleteThe thing people often forget about tier lists is that they are composed of matchups. It is entirely possible for that low tier character who has losing matchups 4-6 to most of the cast to have a matchup 6-4 in their favor against one of the upper tier characters. In that case, the upper tier character would actually be the underdog. People often completely discount the individual matchups that make up the tier list and go only with where the character ends up.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the formulation of tier lists too early in a game's life do lead to less people trying to learn the lower tier characters. If less people play them there will be fewer discoveries and the character will be less developed and less understood. This means the character could potentially be a lot better than people realize due to something unknown about how they "should" be played.
I personally feel that tier lists are just a guide to which characters are generally easier to win with after your learn the basics with them.i dont really play at tourneys to often so i tend to choose characters that i like to play, instead of what everyone else says are top tier characters.
ReplyDeleteWow don't people know that Uryo's sakura made quite a splash in the SSF4 scene in Japan?
ReplyDeleteI believe another part of the article should include Armada's recent victory over HungryBox at Pound V, where he used the "low tier" Young Link to counterpick "top tier" Jiggs and 2-0'd him.
ReplyDeleteIt shows how higher end ranked characters still have weak matchups against lower end tier
Very good article. Even though I've never been a high level player, I've never really given into the idea of tierism. I believe that tiers fall along the lines of offensive vs defensive as well as the style of play.
ReplyDeletebig shout out to shinkada for that well thought out comment. and also a shout to samuel O'Hickey for giving us something to really think about. man, with how i fight and what i've read from top players, the way i view fighting has become a dichotomy of grinding and improving with a character i love, and doing my best to not impede myself by selecting low tier characters all the time. i'm still leaning towards the former though, since low tier characters usually force me to think. i mean, let's say i'm getting rushed down by top tier and i get bodied. well, afterwards i think to myself "okay, i don't have a fast uppercut, i don't have this or that, but what do i have?". i mean every character would have a throw, a jump, a dash and a jab as well as a list of clearly similar moves thanks to the game engine. so how can i use those tools plus the advantages my favorite character has effectively to win against a top tier character?
ReplyDeleteafter many fights, i'll see that "hey, this jab stops this move" or "wow this special throw beats his fireball 9 out of 10." then there's obvious stuff like "man, i should never jump at ken when he's not doing anything" or "okay, when sentinel's flying, he can't block. how can i get up there and make him think twice about that?". also, everyone wants to be unique and show how skilled they are in some way. the character you pick is an expression and a way to show your talent and thinking ability. it can also make you look like a clown though, when you lose in a what's considered a bad matchup.
and on the other hand, whenever a character's considered top tier, you get basically a 24 hour global network of people trying to polish those advantages and minimize the disadvantages. i mean just look at all the info on dante, wolverine or wesker in MVC3 that's come to light because people everywhere can find a use for those guys. the only problem i can see with that is that most people tend to sheepishly follow top tier lists because they want to win consistently or they get tired of getting pounded so they try and turn the tables that way. what makes that exploitable is 1)everyone knows the moves so they also know how to beat it, and 2)when someone who picked low tier also finds a way to beat it, the top tier player usually gets shocked and tends to lose confidence quickly. this'll get you a salty top tier player. don't get me wrong, some people have genuinely complemented me or told me they didn't know this character was that strong, and i've made great friends from how i fight. but usually i've been called cheap, been accused of cheating, gotten tons of hate mail and have been subjected to ragequit after ragequit after ragequit.
the great part about both camps though, is that if you're a low tier player, you don't necessarily have to play top tier to understand things. you can analyze your matches against top tier, check out videos and streams to see the latest tactics people are using with them and formulate your gameplan from there.
in truth though--tier lists are already fluid, it's just becomes psychologically telling of a person's personality, their strengths and their faults based on how they use the knowledge the tier list provides.
Tier list is just a tool and like any tool can be used for good and bad. When the bystander said C.Viper was C Tier ,as a new player in the case presented, I would take it as other players are not doing too well with C.Viper so should i stick with her or move on.If i had already fallen in love with C.Viper I would be willing to face the hard times ahead but if I hadn't I would maybe give another character a try. Using Tier List to tell someone they suck because their high tiered character is losing to low tier or that they don't stand a chance with the low tiered character is bad. One the good side, Tier list help to understand what other players in the community are doing. It gives a broad indicator of what characters are doing well in what situation.When I see on the Tier List that Dhalsim will only win 4/10 vs Fuerte and I have little experience playing against Fuerte i know i need to do more research into the matchup. Also playing the low tiered underplayed character only to win a good player because of his inexperience with that character as a opponent is not a sigh that the Tier list is wrong. Only that you got lucky with your opponent.
ReplyDeleteTier list are a good tool for any new player trying to get into a new game. I would really like to see more factual statistical Tier Lists and Tournaments they are based on. Something like US Tier list based on CEO, Revelations,EVO and PSN\XBL or any other combination of big US tournaments. Assuming the same of players is representative of a given community.
Also the data to support the tier list would be nice. I think it is more important to a tier list that 100 Ryu enters EVO earning only a few victories than it is that Daigo and Valle wins in top 5 with Ryu. As a matter of fact if tournament organizers can just provide us with some win statistics other than who got top 8 I am sure the community would come up with less subjective Tier lists.
Bottom line Tier List, are very useful and I would like to see more Data available so better and less opinionated Tier lists can be made.
I am VERY new to the fighting game community (about 4 months MAYBE) as I have been a shooter all of my life. However for me shooters lack that intense competitive aspect that you get when your opponent is sitting right beside you in the heat of battle with both of you trying to outplay each other. Regardless, as a new member of the FGC, I had no idea what tier list were nor any idea what they would even mean had I known. However, in my personal opinion I am very glad that things worked out in that way. I Understand how tier lists work now and what they represent, however while useful, I do feel the sense that the information they convey and the "power" that they hold is a little over-exaggerated in today's society. From my understanding, tier lists are great sources to find out match-ups between your character and others in a games roster. They provide you with statistics on your chances for victory against a certain character based on the moveset and properties these moves inhibit compared to your moveset and properties in certain situations. HOWEVER, as stated before personal experience is probably the most significant factor in winning a battle against your opponent. SO many factors come into play when competing against your opponent other than just the physical buttons being pressed and moves coming out. Tier lists however cannot reflect those factors and can sometimes lead people to believe that the outcome should always be whatever the tier lists say that they should be and so choose a character purely on that information not realizing the falseness in that judgement.
ReplyDeleteTo me tier lists are like frame data. Frame data while extremely useful and always a good thing to learn is not absolutely necessary to win a battle against an opponent. Frame data provides you with the information needed to know when it is safe to execute a move, when it is not, and when it's time to punish your opponent. However, yet again a person who runs their battle strictly on frame data with no fundamentals or mental strategy will fall victim to one that doesn't know frame data but just has gameplay experience over and over again.
I'm an individual who believes that players should choose the character they want to use based on 3 factors:
~ A character they enjoy
~ Playstyle they want to utilize
~ Their gameplay experience
you follow that logic and you should do just fine.
(The anonymous comment above was by me sorry.)
ReplyDeleteThe terrible truth is that people, are assholes and tend to be petty and weak minded. They look for any excuse to raise themselves above others. We have a shitty generation of fighting game players - and they're not shitty because of "2009" games. No, this shitty mentality can't be pinned on Street Fighter IV.
ReplyDeleteI'm always suspicious of a player who separates themselves from the game, tries to treat the game as math, and cites that they use X character because of their superior technical grasp of the game and understanding of the "correct" character to use.
It's these jerks who actually want (and play) broken, counter productive games. Because they don't care about a game with 50 characters only having 5 useful ones. They'll just all use the same 3 characters. There's even a mentality among these kinds of players that it's pathetic to *like* characters because of their character. They're too cool for that. They're only concerned with "pwning" other people as fast and efficiently as possible. It's like a vile corruption, and undead mockery, of "playing to win".
I can't pin how, or why, exactly, this awful mentality took hold, but it seemed to coincide with the widespread death of the original arcade scene in all but a few places. And the advent of what Americans tend to call the "anime" fighters; from Guilty Gear to Melty Blood. It's as if the new generation nerds who play these games are so insecure they must construct a hipster shield around themselves and it's given them an odious attitude.
The "Playing to win" mentality has been around for a LONG time. I hate when people say things like "it's this stupid new generation blah blah blah" When what they're talking about has been around forever. Playing to win is the mentality almost all top players used back in the day, and still use today.
ReplyDeletePlay to win has always been around even if not by that name. Difference is the last few generations appear only to look at the game to tell them how to play and how to win. They follow tiers like instruction books. They think that's playing to win.
ReplyDeletePlaying to win can include picking a character that is advantageous in a certain situation. Of course. But the core of the philosophy is about infinite adaptability and doing anything possible to win with what you have to work with.
Someone who really plays to win will understand how to take any character and get the most out of them. They will also understand the wisdom of playing any character and not restricting themselves to a short list of the characters they "should" play. They will gain valuable knowledge about the entire game by leaving all options on the table.
A lot of modern players play to win FAME and the appearance of mastery, rather than playing to maximize their abilities. The only reason this flawed mentality has survived is because it is a monoculture. Everyone around these people also picks the same five characters the instruction book (the tier chart) tells them to. They never face a variety of players with different points of view. They become hostile towards players with different points of view to protect their monoculture where they can remain in control. They start using tier charts to excuse why they lose as well as why they win. "You just won because you picked a high tier character. You suck at the game."
Are you the same person? You sound much more insightful than that first post. I pretty much agree with what you've said. Also, picking a low tier character just because they're low tier also applies. It doesn't happen as often as people picking high tier characters just because they're high tier, but it still happens a lot.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXLcdJjvmk
ReplyDeleteHopefully everyone has seen this one on SRK. This is the ultimate bottom-tier vs. top-tier underdog match, and proof that any character can beat any character.
People not only pick low tier because they're low tier, but they also avoid picking high tier characters just because they're high tier.
ReplyDeleteI have to say I completely agree with the anonymous three posts above me.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've seen, most top-tier characters either do one thing very well or have tools for most situations-both of these which make it easier for newer players to get into the game and win with certain characters.
For fun, here is a background-based tier list:
http://www.bombzai.com/marvel-vs-capcom-3-tier-list-story-accurate-version/
Seems like the C. Viper and Sakura examples were countered the argument. C. Viper was inconsistant with wins coming from randomly out guessing the player instead of the character. Sakura became weaker and weaker as the game went on. A weaker character can random the way to the top of a tourny but at the same time the top players take the consistant high tiers and those S or A tiers apear over and over again at the end of tournys. Same with any fighter, Tier = consistancy not randoming out the player.
ReplyDeleteGood stuff. Write more of this.
ReplyDeleteI think Tier list got completely wiped from existance due to the upcoming fighters Gamerbee and Vangief.. Bringing not only Zangief and Adon from the near bottom tier list to top after beating the best street fighter players.
ReplyDelete"The "Playing to win" mentality has been around for a LONG time. I hate when people say things like "it's this stupid new generation blah blah blah" When what they're talking about has been around forever. Playing to win is the mentality almost all top players used back in the day, and still use today."
ReplyDeleteGrats on missing the point. It's about people automatically assuming that the tier-list, particularly ones early on in the game's life, are definitive of how the game is and always will be. It's an attitude that stymies creativity and keeps people from improving, which is *opposite* a philosophy of playing to win.
I play with people who immediately ask "who is top tier in X fighting game" the moment it comes out because they don't want to waste their time learning anything on their own. The game has barely been out for five minutes in an arcade and some smarmy kid looks over and says, "hurf durf c-tier."
Not that I agree with the sentiment "every character can win!" because sometimes it comes down to the way the game is designed and built, and sometimes characters are just designed terribly. But sometimes you do get the hidden gems, or characters who are OK at best but emphasize a person's best traits and together THEY make a higher-tier combination than you might have expected on paper. And you don't find any of that interesting stuff out by sticking purely to S and A tier because you really want to win a tournament one month after the game comes out.
I have to agree here. I am an adamant Juri player and have been either shouted down as a scrub or called a tier whore when I select her. This always intrigued me as I thought it was funny that a versatile (if slightly nuanced) character with a good air game and solid combos (light kick to light/med pin wheel, cancel into super = very yes)can divide the player base so effectively.
ReplyDeleteHalf the time I hear that she is too easy, too approachable for new characters and is lumped in with scrub-kens. The other half its people talking about how difficult she is to master as much of her power comes from taking advantage of situationals and punishing constantly; which, oddly, is a strategy I think is actually ill suited for her in every fight but those with good ranged combos and anti-air i.e. Ken/Ryu, Bison, Sagat, and Sakura depending on the player. Juri closes distance exceptionally well, has decent ranged power, and can zone close range characters like Dudley or Zangief with ease, so a more aggressive strat is often better as it puts pressure on those characters and still allows distance in case of grabs.
The same is how I felt about GGXX's Jam (coincidentally having a play style very similar to Juri). I used her a lot (you remember me playing with her when I got started) and was was taunted because she was basically fast paper with no range. But when you closed distance with her, all it took was one good chain to get you going and then it was over.
But thats sort of your point, I think, and why I agree with you. The long and short of it is that tiers are only as good as the person ascribing them. I've seen Hakans absolutely destroy and Dans go in and murder in high level matches. 95% of the time it simply comes down to player skill.
We've played together off and on for the better part of a decade now (yes, it has been that long) so I think we have a pretty good understanding of eachother. I remember getting my ass handed to me by a Jigglypuff and being happy to get 1% of damage on one of your friends. I also remember using Game & Watch to really, REALLY piss off one or two of your friends a few years later. Any character can win if you know how to press advantages, play mind games and zone. There is something to counter-picking, but it can only help so much. The rest is down to the person hitting the buttons.
I was linked here, and I find much of the article very cool. However, this is about people being dicks on the internet and bashing things that don't deserve it.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to say that the attempt to blame "anime fighters" for the corruption of "play to win" is still laughable in 2012. Since you don't know, "the advent of anime fighters" was Darkstalkers all the way back in 1994, followed by all those Marvel games.
I just can't see Vampire, Guilty, or Melty causing these problems. I even doubt the older Marvel really started that, though I could be wrong. Those communities are tight-knit and as close to their Japanese roots as you can really get, and will generally take out tier-whores (most of which come from games like SFIV, because someone going from Guilty to Melty is going to go for a similar-playing character) for free.
No, a lot of this started with SFIV, because that game revived everything and made fighting games mainstream again, which never really happened since SFII; this is undeniable fact, and even people who've been on the sidelines for the past 4~5 years know this.
Good lord, my post could not be more vague if it tried:
ReplyDelete-When I say "close to Japanese roots", I certainly do not mean Marvel, which has never had any Japanese roots at all. REALLY should have put the Marvel bit in parentheses or something.
-The last bit is about both SFIV's necromancy and how SFIV started all of this.